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FIB - Scams 101
Re: THANKS SO MUCH! - from SUE COPENING
Posted By: Craig Hansen In Response To: Re: THANKS SO MUCH! - from SUE COPENING - Recruiting link deleted (Sue Copening)
Date: Thursday, September 17, 2009, at 1:59 p.m.(pst)
In Response To: Re: THANKS SO MUCH! - from SUE COPENING - Recruiting link deleted (Sue Copening)
>> Craig... have you noticed that sales for MOST companies are down this
Even GM isn't down 75%. 75% isn't a "glitch", it's a "disaster".
>> additionally, you probably know
>> that the company has brought on two other programs that many of our sales
>> agents are focused on selling and learning (some of us are having to get
>> licensed in one, or more states). Spreading Agents focus to these other
>> divisions is also partly responsible for the decline.
Agents are jumping ship. The Jubilee Project moved on to a competing scam. Agent Jennifer Hartman sells BSkinny Coffee (I can not make this stuff up). Many replicated agent sites have gone offline. Agent quality is going down, from what we're seen. UFirst is in a tailspin.
>> Another reason... many of our agents have always been Realtors,
>> Mortgage Brokers and Financial Planners who were selling our program as
>> part of their business. Since these industries have been the hardest hit
>> with the economy, some of these folks have left the business all together
>> and since they are no longer in the industry at all, they no longer have a
>> client base to show our program to. I've lost some agents in my own team
>> for this reason. Layoff's at corporate are a combination of getting
>> "leaner" and also because we are now utilizing more efficient
>> methods for client support (online chat), so that less personnel are
*Anyone* can be a UFirst agent. All it takes is $175 and a multiple choice quiz. The quiz is impossible to fail. You just take the questions you got wrong over again, until you pass. How reassuring that must be to clients.
>> But thanks for the sales numbers Craig. So we've picked up over 13,430
>> new clients this year alone.
Yep, and UFirst had at least two rounds of layoffs, including COO Ted Lambert.
>> Added to our sales for previous years and
>> divided by the small number of (resolved) complaints in the Better
>> Business Bureau, that makes the number of reported complaints about ANY
>> aspect of our program less than .0005%. THAT's outstanding. Obviously the
>> very VAST majority of our clients are happy and satisfied with their
>> experiences with our company and our program.
You have more agents than you have clients. You would have to remove the ones who sell it from that number, and you're assuming everyone who is having problems have all created a complaint with the Utah BBB. Some BBB complaints have come against agents themselves, who are "independent contractors" and act as human (legal) shields for the parent company.
>> It would be great if you based your own judgement on experience,
>> rather than speculation. Perhaps that would provide you a more balanced
>> view and a more accurate idea of why this program benefits people and why
>> our clients love it. Most people looking on the internet have noticed that
>> the "bashers" are always people who are not using our program,
>> while I have yet to see anyone who has used the program say anything
>> negative at all. On the contrary, our clients regularly tell us how it has
>> changed their lives, how excited they are to be reaching their financial
>> goals, etc. Recently we did a survey of clients and I understand we are in
>> the process of posting their feedback on line (so stay tuned).
Perhaps you should talk to a client who doesn't sell it, or isn't related to you. I've seen the "testimonials" posted in written and video format, and every one I've seen turned out to be an agent, or the relative of an agent.
>> Also Craig, I know that you have developed a hatred of our company
>> because you felt a friend of yours got a "bad" agent that you
>> say didn't know what they were doing and were misleading. That may be
>> true, I certainly can't say otherwise as I wasn't there and you may have a
>> legitimate beef in that instance. I can tell you are an intelligent
>> person, so I will assume you would not have made those statements rashly.
>> But anyone that looks around can see that all the OFFICIAL and sanctioned
>> communications by United First Financial are completely straightforward
>> and accurate. No company can completely control every aspect of every
>> person's actions or words. They do the best they can to train, educate and
>> direct agents as to how to properly demonstrate and explain this program.
>> The company has also discharged agents that did not comply with rules and
>> policies. So, frankly, I feel it's unfair to judge the whole of the
>> company by a few random bad experiences, or agents.
I've reported "rogue" agents to UFirst compliance. They don't respond, or take any action that I'm aware. UFirst is careful about what they claim, and let agents make the outlandish claims. Works brilliantly.
>> I'm not sure what "questions" you feel have not been
>> addressed. From what I've seen everything that could possibly be asked HAS
>> been addressed, but you simply disagree with the answers. You also KNOW
>> that we, as agents, are not allowed to post specific math numbers on the
>> internet. It is against company policy to do so, as it would be easy for
>> someone to make a mistake or just a typo. All sales materials are vetted
>> by attorneys to make sure that everything is done properly, stated
>> accurately and is above board.
You're not allowed to post mathematical examples, because each one shows the MMA losing to a simple prepayment method. In some cases, by quite a lot.
>> But the math is just one aspect of why this program works. For that I
>> will say, as we have all said before, that "math is math." In an
>> apples to apples "snapshot" situation of someone using a
>> checking/savings account and making pre-payments, IF they do it at exactly
>> the right time, the same amount of money each time, and never fail to do
>> it (in other words they can mimic the decisions and direction the software
>> WOULD have given them) then, obviously starting out $3500 behind will
>> remain $3500 behind (how could it not?) Money doesn't just magically
>> appear. But how do you think they will KNOW what the direction and
>> calculations of the software would be if they were not using it? And, even
>> if they were a math whiz, how long would it take them to make the
>> calculations doing it themselves?
At the end of the month, after the bills are paid...
[bank balance] - [contingency] = [prepayment]
Send the prepayment to the highest rate debt (after taxes).
There, I just beat the MMA "algorithm". It's worthless.
>> Someone doing it on their own without a tool, or accountability system
>> has (I would guess) about a 85%+ chance of getting worse results, maybe
>> significantly worse, even if they were disciplined enough to consistently
>> follow through with their plan for the 6-15 years they need to do so
>> (statistically unlikely). Now I admit I am really guessing at that %. But
>> I know from looking up statistics on debt pay down programs, and reading
>> financial publications that only about 5-6% of people will stick to a debt
>> pay off program of their own making until they are debt free. I also read
>> in a financial planning magazine that only about 11% of people who visit a
>> financial planner to have a plan set up for them will stick to it past the
>> first year or two. Most financial planners I've brought that statistic up
>> to agreed with it from their own experience. I have encountered 3 that
>> felt that 15-20% was more accurate for their clients, but they were also
>> very "hands on" advisors who talked to their clients monthly (so
>> were, in effect, acting as an "accountability" system).
Citation please. Where are you getting this stuff? If it's "Success from Home" or other such rags with heavy UFirst advertising and glowing reviews, the purpose of those publications is to promote companies. These magazines say so, right on their websites.
>> So why DON'T people stick to their own "do it yourself"
>> Life, human nature, lack of discipline, lack of accountability, lack
>> of seeing any immediate results (no instant gratification), etc. Things
>> get in the way. Doesn't make us bad, or stupid, just human.
Right, and the $3500 MMA will instill discipline, while the more powerful and easier-to-use, $100 Quicken or MS Money or other such package will not. Sure.
>> So a math comparison is really a MOOT POINT as, like we have pointed
>> out repeatedly, most people will NEVER do it without an accountability
>> system to do the math FOR them, motivate them, help them cut down on
>> impulse spending and STICK TO their plan. IF they WERE the kind of people
>> that were highly disciplined and math orientated, they would not be
>> seeking out a program like ours in the first place.
People can set up automatic withdrawals to prepay their mortgage. I did. It was on autopilot. If we started to run short of cash, I could have reverted back to the basic mortgage payment. If I didn't notice, I had overdraft protection.
>> Most of you here on the internet are obviously those highly
>> analytical, math oriented and, I suspect, disciplined people who have
>> either been successful with your own plans, or have never had debt. That
>> is great... for YOU. But I feel you do other people a disservice by
>> assuming that everyone is like you and that they should be able to do what
>> you have done. Again, if they could have... why haven't they already? Why
>> do they even HAVE debt at all? Is it really fair to make people feel
>> inadequate because they are are seeking a tool, or a system, to better
>> enable them to do something they they have not been able to accomplish so
>> far on their own?
People shouldn't worry about me. I'm here to help, and I haven't charged a thing. People should know that if they fall for the sales pitch, they'll put themselves deeper in debt for no good reason.
>> The Money Merge Account program has proven, over the (about 5) years
>> it's been out there, to be an excellent tool and system to provide all
>> those missing pieces that help people to stay on track and motivated. It
>> SHOWS them where they are at so it gives them "instant
>> gratification" for doing the right thing. I've had client after
>> client see how easy they have found it to decrease their impulse spending
>> and make better decisions. In surveys we have done and numbers we have
>> pulled (log-ons to use the program), our numbers show that 95% of our
>> clients do log on to use their software monthly (they are sticking to it),
>> and our average client is getting 15-25% better results (meaning they are
>> paying off much faster than projected when they started the program).
United First Financial was founded in January 2006. The Money Merge Account was introduced later in 2006. Only would someone from a company as bad at math as UFirst is, try to say the 3-year-old MMA has been proven over 5 years.
>> Let's also keep in mind that most people wouldn't know how to do the
>> math, nor would they take the time, to figure out the OPTIMAL payment
>> order. The average American has 13 lines of personal debt, many of my
>> business owner clients have many more than that as they have business debt
>> as well. Our real estate investor clients have even more. Some are
>> amortized loans, some are revolving, some are private and amortized over
>> different terms than usual, some are interest only. So calculating
>> "optimum" is complicated.
Lie. Apply discretionary cash to the highest rate debt, after taxes. Always try to reduce your rates or consolidate high interest debt into lower interest debt first.
>> Currently the software handles a huge number of lines of debt (I have
>> not heard of anyone "maxing" it out yet, though I think it does
>> "max out" somewhere around 75 lines of debt). Soon, it will also
>> produce separate reports for various entities as well, for accounting
>> purposes. This means you could have your personal debt and budget, your
>> business debt and budget, multiple investment properties, etc, all working
>> together to maximize cash flow, yet still keep everything "clean and
>> separate" for accounting and tax purposes. The software itself is
>> being continually upgraded, with R&D being directed by client suggestions
>> and feedback.
I hope the reduced sales don't cause them to lay off the development staff next.
>> The Money Merge Account software has the ability to instantly
>> calculate the "quickest way to zero" to achieve the lowest
>> interest cost. It's not "horseshoes or hand grenades" and
>> getting "close" can still, over a 6-15 year period, (even for a
>> typical single mortgage homeowner) be $10K, $20K, $30K or even MUCH more,
>> from the "optimal" results that were really possible had the pay
>> off been done most efficiently/optimally. I have clients I'm working with
>> now that are projected to save over $150 MILLION dollars in interest on
>> commercial investment properties, so any margin of error for them would be
This is the MMA we're talking about. It has already been proven to be inefficient at paying off debts. See JoeTaxpayer's excellent series on the MMA. He gained access to the demo version and ran it through its paces. If someone wants to be pay off their debts efficiently, getting dinged for $3500, then paying off debts inefficiently, is not the way to do it.
>> "Doing it yourself" is certainly an option for everyone as
>> it is in all aspects of life. However you can't see the road not taken,
>> and doing it yourself, you will never have any way to know how much BETTER
>> you could have done, and how much more you could have saved, had you had
>> this system and software to help you. Ignorance might be
>> "bliss," but it could also be very costly.
>> Hopefully most people are smart enough to do their own research, have
>> a financial report done for them, weigh the pros and cons and make their
>> own decision. Obviously though, doing the same thing they have been
>> doing... is going to get them the same results they have always gotten. If
>> they are happy with the status quo in their lives, then one of their
>> options is to keep doing what they are doing. Again though... I never hear
>> from those people, they have no reason to call us. The clients I hear from
>> are those seeking a better way, a tool, a plan, to reach their financial
>> goals more quickly.
From the sales figures, people are doing their own research.
>> And finally... I'm proud to work with United First Financial. Are they
>> perfect 100% of the time and never make a mistake? Can you name any
>> company that is?
They are scam artists.
>> But UFirst has integrity, they treat clients well, I've found them to
>> be responsive in "fixing" issues and, if you get to know the
>> founders and owners, you see they are well meaning, sincere and really
>> looking to make a positive difference in peoples lives.
One client posted to Tracy Coenen's blog, asking for help getting a refund out of UFirst. As it was past the 3 day window, they are not providing a refund. I'll link to the complaint, and my link won't be an affiliate link (unlike yours).
Sandy's complaint against United First Financial
Messages In This Thread
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